Navy intercepts seventh boat of asylum-seekers in two months

[Psyber]

No, not economic refugees, the overwhelming majority are found to be genuine refugees.

Just a note of cautious scepticism about trusting completely the conclusions (or consensus) of authorities - be it in this case or scientific conclusions.

Being "found to be genuine refugees" could mean that in some cases the applicant or their representative put up a good story that couldn't be refuted and get the benefit of the doubt. It is like the findings of courts - wrong convictions occur, and on the other hand the guilty sometimes get off.

I expect that in time the big growth will be in refugees from starvation and poverty, more than from war and persecution. That seems inevitable as world population grows. What concerns me is that, in the long run, if we totally share the wealth of food and resources we'll all be hungry and resource poor relative to what we have now in our society. The moral dilemma, then, is do we preserve ourselves or accept being part of the decline of quality of life for all due to overpopulation.

[bennymacca]

basically what you are saying is we should let african babies die so we can go out and buy a new car when we want?

i know you probably didnt mean it as harshly as i just put it but i have a real problem with anyone that tries to infer that aussies are on the brink of struggle street.

sure, individuals might be doing it tough, not denying that, but there are very few australians that litterally dont have enough food to eat so they die of malnutrition

[Psyber]

basically what you are saying is we should let african babies die so we can go out and buy a new car when we want?

i know you probably didnt mean it as harshly as i just put it but i have a real problem with anyone that tries to infer that aussies are on the brink of struggle street.

sure, individuals might be doing it tough, not denying that, but there are very few australians that litterally dont have enough food to eat so they die of malnutrition

I was looking at the long term...

In that long term I think it will come to a point where a decision has to be made whether we all live on the edge of survival or some die so others can have life of some quality - that is the moral dilemma, but I think it will about 2 or 3 generations away. It happens to all growing populations on fixed resource supply, regardless of species.

I think the issue may be more whether to feed, adequately, and educate our kids, or save kids in other parts of the world from dying - not buying new cars.

[bennymacca]

I do agree with you to some extent - that's why I think climate change is such a big issue given it could make whole countries lose their food sources.

[Psyber]

I do agree with you to some extent - that's why I think climate change is such a big issue given it could make whole countries lose their food sources.

Historically, climate fluctuations have moved the rainfall patterns around over millennia, and people have moved around with them. The problem is that when there were relatively few people there was room to move around without causing conflict, but over the last five to ten thousand years it has been harder to take over new resources without running into conflict with others who are also on the move and want them too. That can only get worse as population pressure increases.

Current climate change is a bigger issue as the natural patterns of fluctuation do seem to be being influenced by humans because of the massive increases in our numbers, and we don't know yet whether the rainfall patterns will just shift or whether some run away greenhouse effect will occur. I am bit concerned that we are too focussed on the idea that if we just cut our CO2 output it will all stop happening - that cutting CO2 emissions alone will make it all go away. I think it is more likely the normal fluctuations will continue even if our aggravating effect is eliminated, and it may be that we should already be considering not expanding coastal cities only to have to build dykes around them, or evacuate them, in years to come.

History tells us interesting things. Greenland was once arable, at least in part about 900AD, but by 1100AD it was not due to ice encroachment, and the Romans had vineyards in Yorkshire around 200AD, which would be a struggle to achieve now. Sea and river levels in the middle east were higher during the era of Alexander the Great. But people then still had room to adapt and move even if in some cases it triggered battles and wars.

[bennymacca]

It's as much a geopolitical problem - as you have pointed out, we would in all likelihood turn away hundreds of thousands of people to protect ourselves, so what do those people do?

[Psyber]

It's as much a geopolitical problem - as you have pointed out, we would in all likelihood turn away hundreds of thousands of people to protect ourselves, so what do those people do?

Good question - and a question for every species on the planet -I started thinking about it in the 1970s.
We are the only ones we are sure can think about the question, and mostly we try not to....

That is easier when we are keeping ourselves busy, which I'm not on Christmas Day usually, but I'll have to stop thinking soon to go out to have dinner at the home of some Lebanese friends. I'll also be occupied and distracted New Years eve and NY day, and I'm off to Noosa and Brisbane for 9 days in early January with a friend. By then things should be back to normal...

[bulldogproud2]

The following article shows the true picture of Abbott's policy: it is re-route the boats, not stop them. Many more deaths are now occurring as asylum seekers have to take more dangerous journeys:

http://www.unrefugees.org.au/news-and-m ... ar-350,000

[Q.]

The same statistical manipulation was used during the Howard era. They aren't fooling anyone....or are they?

[bulldogproud2]

Mind you, the ALP's policy is not much better on this.
This is one issue where it is the lives of the 47 million refugees and displaced people in the world that matters, not political point scoring.
Am ashamed at the lack of compassion of both of the major political parties. I wish they could try to embody the care and concern for humanity that Malcolm Fraser had.

[Q.]

Not a chance of that. Too many dumb bogans dancing to the tune of the dog whistle.

[bulldogproud2]

Not a chance of that. Too many dumb bogans dancing to the tune of the dog whistle.

Afraid you are right, my friend. Too many of us are influenced so easily by slogans and those with vested interests. Why can't we all learn to think for ourselves, to the betterment of humankind?