Israel/Hamas Conflict

[bennymacca]

So by your standards war and fighting is the logical conclusion to any disagreement of any kind?

[Jimmy_041]

So by your standards war and fighting is the logical conclusion to any disagreement of any kind?

I really think you know f'all about my standards - stupid comment
If you know how to fix it, get off your ass and go and fix it
You'd be the first person in 3,000+ years than could

But I give the NZ analogy again if someone attacks you.

Now, get back to work defending us!!!

[bennymacca]

I was asking a question jimmy.

If course it is complex. Of course there are people on both sides that are to blame. But blowing up schools and then have people saying it's what the Palestinians want is just insane

And btw Israelis are almost certainly the "invaders" in this circumstance.

[Booney]

POLITICS FORUM >>>>>>

[Footy Chick]

yup.

[Jimmy_041]

I was asking a question jimmy.

If course it is complex. Of course there are people on both sides that are to blame. But blowing up schools and then have people saying it's what the Palestinians want is just insane

And btw Israelis are almost certainly the "invaders" in this circumstance.

Both are to blame and it's been going on for years and will never stop.
It is a clash of religion, ancient cultures and history
No-one will win
BTW, a proportionate response is Israel not nuking them which they could do

[bennymacca]

So anything less than nuking is ok? Killing innocent women and children with conventional ordnance is ok but with nuclear it had crossed a line?

[Booney]

This thread might go on for longer than the conflict it is discussing.

[Jimmy_041]

This thread might go on for longer than the conflict it is discussing.

Hopefully, not another 3000 years

[shoe boy]

I was asking a question jimmy.

If course it is complex. Of course there are people on both sides that are to blame. But blowing up schools and then have people saying it's what the Palestinians want is just insane

And btw Israelis are almost certainly the "invaders" in this circumstance.

Both are to blame and it's been going on for years and will never stop.
It is a clash of religion, ancient cultures and history
No-one will win
BTW, a proportionate response is Israel not nuking them which they could do

That's the spirit Jimmy.
if Israel was not on the map happy days for many.

[Sojourner]

I do believe that this situation can be resolved in the same way that the war in Northern Ireland was brought to a peaceful resolution after years of bloodshed.

The main problem is that few people are prepared to look at both sides of the argument preferring to try and choose one side or the other and as a result become a part of the conflict and continue to perpetuate it.

My thoughts are that at the end of WW2 billions of people were displaced, amongst them the Jews that survived the death camps who had nothing to go back to, were unwanted in their own countries and were genuine refugees in every sense of the word refugee. Even after WW2 many countries would not take them in because of their own financial situation where they claimed they could not accept refugees or were overwhelmed with their own problems. As a result many of these Jews went to the existing Jewish community in Jerusalem and the surrounding areas. When Israel was declared a nation many Islamic nations rounded up their Jewish populations, took from them their homes and possessions and so forth and expelled them to Israel, again as refugees as we would now see them if they came on a refugee boat. These people were largely ignored and perhaps out of a sense of guilt even assisted to go to Israel. – the population then explodes with people that have no country to return to.

Then there are all the various conflicts that are being fought out between all manner of different people over there such as Hamas, Zionism and so forth which further complicates the issue. Along with the circumstances that led to a number of Palestinian people leaving and the gate being shut behind them as it were during the two major wars in 1948 and 1967.

Fast forward to 2014 and none of it is resolved in any way shape or form. My thoughts are that the first steps are to establish small areas that are absolutely the territory of one or the other, for example the area of Tel Aviv for Israel and Ramallah for the Palestinians which is openly pretty obvious to most people. Then simply negotiate other areas and let them work their way up from there rather than trying to do it all at once. Clearly once they have got to Jerusalem that becomes a problem, yet much less of a problem once a lot more territory now becomes clearly defined and people can live in peace in those areas.

[shoe boy]

I do believe that this situation can be resolved in the same way that the war in Northern Ireland was brought to a peaceful resolution after years of bloodshed.

The main problem is that few people are prepared to look at both sides of the argument preferring to try and choose one side or the other and as a result become a part of the conflict and continue to perpetuate it.

My thoughts are that at the end of WW2 billions of people were displaced, amongst them the Jews that survived the death camps who had nothing to go back to, were unwanted in their own countries and were genuine refugees in every sense of the word refugee. Even after WW2 many countries would not take them in because of their own financial situation where they claimed they could not accept refugees or were overwhelmed with their own problems. As a result many of these Jews went to the existing Jewish community in Jerusalem and the surrounding areas. When Israel was declared a nation many Islamic nations rounded up their Jewish populations, took from them their homes and possessions and so forth and expelled them to Israel, again as refugees as we would now see them if they came on a refugee boat. These people were largely ignored and perhaps out of a sense of guilt even assisted to go to Israel. – the population then explodes with people that have no country to return to.

Then there are all the various conflicts that are being fought out between all manner of different people over there such as Hamas, Zionism and so forth which further complicates the issue. Along with the circumstances that led to a number of Palestinian people leaving and the gate being shut behind them as it were during the two major wars in 1948 and 1967.

Fast forward to 2014 and none of it is resolved in any way shape or form. My thoughts are that the first steps are to establish small areas that are absolutely the territory of one or the other, for example the area of Tel Aviv for Israel and Ramallah for the Palestinians which is openly pretty obvious to most people. Then simply negotiate other areas and let them work their way up from there rather than trying to do it all at once. Clearly once they have got to Jerusalem that becomes a problem, yet much less of a problem once a lot more territory now becomes clearly defined and people can live in peace in those areas.

Still no peace in NI "CHUCKY AR LAR"
No mention of Israel taking land from Palestine daily and building settlements etc

[bennymacca]

Great post, 100% agree with all of that

[Jimmy_041]

I was asking a question jimmy.

If course it is complex. Of course there are people on both sides that are to blame. But blowing up schools and then have people saying it's what the Palestinians want is just insane

And btw Israelis are almost certainly the "invaders" in this circumstance.

Both are to blame and it's been going on for years and will never stop.
It is a clash of religion, ancient cultures and history
No-one will win
BTW, a proportionate response is Israel not nuking them which they could do

That's the spirit Jimmy.
if Israel was not on the map happy days for many.

I've heard the same said about Noarlunga

[Jimmy_041]

I was asking a question jimmy.

If course it is complex. Of course there are people on both sides that are to blame. But blowing up schools and then have people saying it's what the Palestinians want is just insane

And btw Israelis are almost certainly the "invaders" in this circumstance.

But you are the one taking sides Benny so how can you agree with it 100%???

[Sojourner]

Still no peace in NI "CHUCKY AR LAR"
No mention of Israel taking land from Palestine daily and building settlements etc

I have put up what I think is a solution to the problem, lets hear your own...

[bennymacca]

Interesting article on the current state of affairs in the Middle East. I read it carefully but am still none the wiser.

Reminds me a little of Europe in the late 1800s, hopefully it doesn't end up the same way (or are we already on that path?)

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/a ... -iraq-gaza

[Sojourner]

Interesting article on the current state of affairs in the Middle East. I read it carefully but am still none the wiser.

Reminds me a little of Europe in the late 1800s, hopefully it doesn't end up the same way (or are we already on that path?)

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/a ... -iraq-gaza

It is a good article although its gets pretty heavy, but that also is the nature of the conflict.

If we exclude Israel to just focus on the Arabs, the picture could be like this,

Arabs are split into two main groups of islam - Sunni and Shiite.

There are minority Arabs - Coptic Christians and others.

Then there are ethnic groups that are stateless, Druze and the Kurds along with President Assads Alawite group who are based in Syria.

Often the minority Sunni or Shiite Group control the majority of the other group/s in a country because of class structure.

Sunni and Shiites fought initially over control of Mecca, Located in Saudi Arabia. Mecca is central to the belief of both groups and the group that controls it has less numbers than those that dont, yet they generally have better weapons hence why Iran is not permitted nuclear weapons. Not because of fears for world safety, but for the fact that they might take control of Mecca.

Clear as mud?

[shoe boy]

The Palestinian people live by the motto "I would rather die on my feet than live on my knees"

[Psyber]

The Palestinian people live by the motto "I would rather die on my feet than live on my knees"

I suspect that in most wars - maybe all - both sides take that view, blaming the other as being the aggressor or traitor.
e.g. Croatia/Serbia.

Some of the middle east conflict's roots are lost in antiquity - e.g. Jews/Philistines which may have some influence in the Israel/Palestine situation.
However, the conflicts involving the Muslim faith began much later - post 600AD - and the Muslim peoples may therefore have less historical claim to the land.

Then, perhaps more of the militant Israelis are those who returned post-WWII.

It is never as simple as it looks at first glance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel

Antiquity
Further information: History of ancient Israel and Judah
The notion of the "Land of Israel", known in Hebrew as Eretz Yisrael, has been important and sacred to the Jewish people since Biblical times. According to the Torah, God promised the land to the three Patriarchs of the Jewish people.[35][36] On the basis of scripture, the period of the three Patriarchs has been placed somewhere in the early 2nd millennium BCE,[37] and the first Kingdom of Israel was established around the 11th century BCE. Subsequent Israelite kingdoms and states ruled intermittently over the next four hundred years, and are known from various extra-biblical sources.[38][39][40][41]
The northern Kingdom of Israel, as well as Philistine city-states, fell in 722 BCE, though the southern Kingdom of Judah and several Phoenician city-states continued their existence as the region came under Assyrian rule. With the emergence of Babylonians, Judah was eventually conquered as well in the year 586 BCE.