Down the Hill wrote:I was an advocate for keeping 1 Division due to the belief that Div 2 clubs would struggle to retain decent juniors to help them improve. However 10 years on from moving to 1 Division we still have A & B grade teams and junior teams copping floggings so I don't think there is any other option than going back to 2 Divisions.
The big issue will be the relegation / promotion model. EG. If Porties finish bottom of Div1 but were competitive in most losses and juniors still fared well, as compared to eg. Christies finishing top of Division 2 with juniors not being world beaters, what happens then ? If one went up and the other went down, fair chance many Porties juniors would be keen to cross to their near neighbour to continue playing Div 1 juniors and could create a downward spiral for Porties. Cove were in a similar rut when they were Div 2 and they have been the one club that has prospered when we went to 1 Division.
The "unlucky" clubs who miss the initial Div 1 will demand a chance to get promoted if they have success in Div 2 but how do you compare that with the bottom team in Div 1. Back in the late 80's and early 90's when Div 2 was made up of predominantly "country" type teams, it seemed most were fairly comfortable with the Div they played but with the exit of the 2 McLarens, Meadows, Kangarilla I'm not sure how this would pan out now.
Promotion / Relegation should be automatic.
I am not a fan of tying div 1 qualification to juniors. It is not a country league.
Where's Bill? Yeah... Hmm... Bill is on the Villa Quatro, on the road to Salina. I will draw you a map.
1983 wrote:problems with Edwardstown being allowed into the league with poor junior setup, etc. etc.
Edwardstown actually have a decent setup. They have under under 8's, 9's, 10's, 11's, 12's, 15's, 16.5's and 18's. It is just that the latter is the only grade not in the South Metro Junior Football League.
IMHO the MSJFL are doing a few things more things right that the SFL with their juniors.
Where's Bill? Yeah... Hmm... Bill is on the Villa Quatro, on the road to Salina. I will draw you a map.
Down the Hill wrote:I was an advocate for keeping 1 Division due to the belief that Div 2 clubs would struggle to retain decent juniors to help them improve. However 10 years on from moving to 1 Division we still have A & B grade teams and junior teams copping floggings so I don't think there is any other option than going back to 2 Divisions.
The big issue will be the relegation / promotion model. EG. If Porties finish bottom of Div1 but were competitive in most losses and juniors still fared well, as compared to eg. Christies finishing top of Division 2 with juniors not being world beaters, what happens then ? If one went up and the other went down, fair chance many Porties juniors would be keen to cross to their near neighbour to continue playing Div 1 juniors and could create a downward spiral for Porties. Cove were in a similar rut when they were Div 2 and they have been the one club that has prospered when we went to 1 Division.
The "unlucky" clubs who miss the initial Div 1 will demand a chance to get promoted if they have success in Div 2 but how do you compare that with the bottom team in Div 1. Back in the late 80's and early 90's when Div 2 was made up of predominantly "country" type teams, it seemed most were fairly comfortable with the Div they played but with the exit of the 2 McLarens, Meadows, Kangarilla I'm not sure how this would pan out now.
Good point maybe a promotion/relegation based on whole club (using sliding scale eg A grade performance having greater bearing than winning u14s - hills league use something similar) could be an option?? Having said that you couldn't relegate a club who didn't finish bottom 2 in A grade. Something that needs alot of thought/discussion to come up with the right answer. It works for SAAFL it can/will work for SFL.
O’Sullivan Beach F.C Est. 1975 Lonsdale F.C Est. 1977 O’Sullivan Beach/Lonsdale F.C Est. 2001 Premierships A-Grade ~ 5 Reserves ~ 5 Juniors ~ 17
1983 wrote:Can the SFL board be trusted to do anything about the situation though? The two divisions debate has been going for a few years now. There has been overwhelming support for two divisions but no action or any investigation into the matter has resulted from the board. It seems that the SFL wants to keep with the 1 division regardless what the members want. Will the situation ever change? Do we as members of the SFL need to make an arguement so strong that the SFL have no choice but to act? Does something need to be done, say for example each club puts to a vote whether or not to return to two divisions or should every club be surveyed on their thoughts on the matter? Is this something that the clubs should take upon themselves and not wait for the SFL to act?
World Series Football??
Bring out the White footy and play only night games!!
If you are genuine about 2 divs why not organise a petition to go out to all clubs that support the idea and get some names and signatures. Judging by the poll it should be pretty unanimous. If the league delegates choose to ignore the clubs they represent then action should be taken against them.
1983 wrote:Can the SFL board be trusted to do anything about the situation though? The two divisions debate has been going for a few years now. There has been overwhelming support for two divisions but no action or any investigation into the matter has resulted from the board. It seems that the SFL wants to keep with the 1 division regardless what the members want. Will the situation ever change? Do we as members of the SFL need to make an arguement so strong that the SFL have no choice but to act? Does something need to be done, say for example each club puts to a vote whether or not to return to two divisions or should every club be surveyed on their thoughts on the matter? Is this something that the clubs should take upon themselves and not wait for the SFL to act?
I think you are right 1983 it must be time for the clubs to take it out of the SFL's hands. Maybe the article in the messenger may wake them from their slumber?
O’Sullivan Beach F.C Est. 1975 Lonsdale F.C Est. 1977 O’Sullivan Beach/Lonsdale F.C Est. 2001 Premierships A-Grade ~ 5 Reserves ~ 5 Juniors ~ 17
Down the Hill wrote:I was an advocate for keeping 1 Division due to the belief that Div 2 clubs would struggle to retain decent juniors to help them improve. However 10 years on from moving to 1 Division we still have A & B grade teams and junior teams copping floggings so I don't think there is any other option than going back to 2 Divisions.
The big issue will be the relegation / promotion model. EG. If Porties finish bottom of Div1 but were competitive in most losses and juniors still fared well, as compared to eg. Christies finishing top of Division 2 with juniors not being world beaters, what happens then ? If one went up and the other went down, fair chance many Porties juniors would be keen to cross to their near neighbour to continue playing Div 1 juniors and could create a downward spiral for Porties. Cove were in a similar rut when they were Div 2 and they have been the one club that has prospered when we went to 1 Division.
The "unlucky" clubs who miss the initial Div 1 will demand a chance to get promoted if they have success in Div 2 but how do you compare that with the bottom team in Div 1. Back in the late 80's and early 90's when Div 2 was made up of predominantly "country" type teams, it seemed most were fairly comfortable with the Div they played but with the exit of the 2 McLarens, Meadows, Kangarilla I'm not sure how this would pan out now.
Good point maybe a promotion/relegation based on whole club (using sliding scale eg A grade performance having greater bearing than winning u14s - hills league use something similar) could be an option?? Having said that you couldn't relegate a club who didn't finish bottom 2 in A grade. Something that needs alot of thought/discussion to come up with the right answer. It works for SAAFL it can/will work for SFL.
From an outsiders point of view, it works easily for us in the SAAFL because our juniors are completely sepeate. It's easy to promote/relegate senior sides, because every club has them. Go any lower and it would be a nightmare. There's 67 clubs in the SAAFL, and only 24 have an Under 18s side. The easiest way I can see for you, is to move all your juniors to Sundays and run them seperately, then base the promotion/relegation on your seniors squarely on the A grade.
I understand it may take away from the family atmosphere that you have, which is an excellent thing by the way, but if you want the competition to be as fair as possible for your seniors, that's the way to go.
Pag is spot on Lion Heart. SAAFL clubs really do not have Juniors other than a bit of a token Under 18 set up which gets played on Sunday afternoons. The junior grades below that are virtually run as separate clubs and I have on good authority that many of these clubs are forever at odds between the senior and junior admin. The % of juniors who go on and play seniors at these clubs is miniscule compared to SFL clubs so very dangerous to simply adopt SAAFL system.
Down the Hill wrote:Pag is spot on Lion Heart. SAAFL clubs really do not have Juniors other than a bit of a token Under 18 set up which gets played on Sunday afternoons. The junior grades below that are virtually run as separate clubs and I have on good authority that many of these clubs are forever at odds between the senior and junior admin. The % of juniors who go on and play seniors at these clubs is miniscule compared to SFL clubs so very dangerous to simply adopt SAAFL system.
We have two separate committees (junior and senior), but any club worth a pinch of salt would know that these two entities need to work as closely together as they possibly can. We still see ourselves as one club, with two separate sub-committees. Just because we're set-up differently and play on different days, doesn't mean amateur leagues clubs are any worse off.
I'd tell the SFL to follow our system, it definitely helps having a whole weekend of bar/canteen trade and if you have a club that wants to continue to be a strong club, it shouldn't be an issue.
White Line Fever wrote:When i was a junior in SFL i loved playing before the Bs as all the seniors cheered us on, then sitting on the wing and watching the As and Bs play.
Agree with 2 divisions but alot of work would need to be done. Looking at it from my clubs point of view, we now have 5 junior teams, 2 years ago we only had 2. If we where in Div 2 90% of our kids would leave and go and play in the metro sth league if not go to brighton.
White Line Fever wrote:When i was a junior in SFL i loved playing before the Bs as all the seniors cheered us on, then sitting on the wing and watching the As and Bs play.
No way should juniors be on a Sunday.
Agreed, this is the heart & soul of our competition
White Line Fever wrote:When i was a junior in SFL i loved playing before the Bs as all the seniors cheered us on, then sitting on the wing and watching the As and Bs play.
No way should juniors be on a Sunday.
Agreed, this is the heart & soul of our competition
I understand that, and FWIW I think it's excellent, but if you're going to have two divisions, how are Div 2 going to run when some junior competitions only have 3-4 sides?
I'm not a fan of moving juniors to 1 comp on a sunday either we must try to keep them with the senior sides and continue to enjoy our day of football starting at 8.30 and finishing at 5.30. As i stated earlier alot of discussion needs to be had on the matter but 2 divs worked in the past and will work again so lets not overcomplicate things. I would be almost certain the div 2 junior comp may initially be a problem but it would grow and thrive after a couple of years.
Why is it that in 2002 every team fielded 14/16s and the u18 comp was alot stronger than it is today? From memory there were only 2 dual sides in each age group as well yet today we have 15 dual sides competing? 1 division has not only increased the gap between top and bottom in seniors but has created a gap as big as the grand canyon in the juniors as well. Kids more so than adults dislike 40 goal pumpings. What chance do the lower clubs with weak or few juniors have of closing the gap in seniors if their juniors are struggling ??
The SFL have created a situation where the "rich get rich and the poor get poorer". In fact the more i think about it the more i am convinced that they would rather see the demise of some clubs rather than fix the mess they have created.
O’Sullivan Beach F.C Est. 1975 Lonsdale F.C Est. 1977 O’Sullivan Beach/Lonsdale F.C Est. 2001 Premierships A-Grade ~ 5 Reserves ~ 5 Juniors ~ 17
White Line Fever wrote:When i was a junior in SFL i loved playing before the Bs as all the seniors cheered us on, then sitting on the wing and watching the As and Bs play.
No way should juniors be on a Sunday.
Agreed, this is the heart & soul of our competition
I understand that, and FWIW I think it's excellent, but if you're going to have two divisions, how are Div 2 going to run when some junior competitions only have 3-4 sides?
The same way it did for decades!! Having played div 2 juniors i can tell you it was rare that clubs were not able to field sides. Div 1 second sides also played in the comp to help prop up the numbers. How about the league was more proactive and approached clubs to join us ?? How many clubs have left the SFL in the last 10-12 years??
O’Sullivan Beach F.C Est. 1975 Lonsdale F.C Est. 1977 O’Sullivan Beach/Lonsdale F.C Est. 2001 Premierships A-Grade ~ 5 Reserves ~ 5 Juniors ~ 17
It would probably be fair to say that two divisions is the way to go. It would also be fair to say that it will create it's own set of problems along with fixing many of the current problems. We do have people in place who's job it is to fix these problems though and two divisions is not a completely new format, we have the experience from last time we had two divisions to draw upon. Public opinion APPEARS that a majority (not all) support two divisions, the question is what now? What is the RESPONSIBLE action that must be taken? There is a system already in place within the SFL that clubs can voice their opinion through their club delegates at SFL meeting. Is this the way to go or is something else such as a petition from all clubs the best way? The returning to two divisions will be a major change to the SFL structure and must be done correctly to avoid further stuff ups. It is my PERSONAL opinion that the SFL is relying on talk and no action from it's members on the matter, although I would be more than pleased to be proven wrong by the SFL board if they took it upon themselves right away to make the change.
lion heart wrote:More negative press for the SFL - MMM's Andrew Jarman has called for the 'mercy rule' in regards to the thumping Hackham received on the weekend.
lion heart wrote:More negative press for the SFL - MMM's Andrew Jarman has called for the 'mercy rule' in regards to the thumping Hackham received on the weekend.
What exactly is he proposing?
Only caught the tail end of conversation but something along the lines of calling the game off once it got to a certain point because 50 goals was embarrassing for all involved
O’Sullivan Beach F.C Est. 1975 Lonsdale F.C Est. 1977 O’Sullivan Beach/Lonsdale F.C Est. 2001 Premierships A-Grade ~ 5 Reserves ~ 5 Juniors ~ 17
Surely it is just a matter of two divs being proposed at the AGM by a single club with the backing of other clubs. I have had a quick scan (very quick) and can't see anywhere where it states about the amount of divisions required the SFL. You never know unless you try.
